Sun 22 Oct 2006
Since somewhere around my 3rd trimester, I’ve been thinking “I want to join a church.”
This was sort of a weird desire for me, and not one I was entirely comfortable with having. I’ve always been one of your more agnostic intellectual types, and I was raised as an occasional attendee at a very unusual church.
After Noah was born, specifically 6 or 8 weeks after Noah was born, this desire kicked into higher gear. I wanted him to be baptized, I want him to know how to behave and be comfortable in church, I want a nice church community around him.
As it happened, one of the first non-work people I met here is the minister at the church my neighbors attend. We both had Virginia tags on our cars, and one day while he was visiting them to watch basketball, we ran across the street to meet each other. I hadn’t even met the neighbors yet, but they too had moved here from the DC ‘burbs.
As we chatted, Gary made a point of inviting me and Jill to visit, assuring me that we would both be welcome. So when I first decided to take action on this churchy impulse, naturally, I mentioned it to the neighbors and attended their church.
Except for the doctrinal stuff, it seems like a really good fit. I’ll get back to the doctrinal stuff in a moment.
Why it’s a good fit:
- Four of the five times I’ve visited, there has been an explicit mention of social justice and equality based on sexual orientation;
- Lots of young families with kids 10 and under, including a couple of other lesbian families;
- Another lesbian couple, older than us, in our “inquirers class” this weekend;
- Lots of social justice activism, including a winter homeless shelter in the church gym, a weekly foot clinic for homeless people, church based advocacy on children’s and poverty issues;
- A long history of support for civil rights;
- Lots of women in leadership roles;
- A very intellectual community, full of classes, service projects, & earnest seminary and theology students;
- NAEYC-accredited day care center; and
- A handful of people we already knew and liked.
Of course, it isn’t perfect. The denomination as a whole is much less progressive than this particular church, particularly on LGBT issues. And this church is pretty white, like ~98%. Maybe 99%.
And the doctrinal stuff…well, it’s pretty standard evangelical Christianity, heavy on the Jesus. I know, what else can you expect from Church?
But it is the part I have the most difficulty believing. I fully believe this is a good community that would benefit my family, and would benefit from having us as members.
And some days, I’m even comfortable with the idea of a higher power/God, something bigger than us, connecting everything in the world.
It’s when we get down into the Jesus, son of God, foot-washing carpenter guy, who takes away the sins of the world, that I start having a harder time.
It gets even harder when you get into the Calvinist tradition, with predestination and God’s chosen elect, all that. I like my will free, and my people created equal, actually. Fortunately, I haven’t heard much about that Calvinist stuff at this church, and everything I have heard seems pretty democratic, so that may be ok.
Right now, I’m planning to officially join the church next weekend.
The hard part is figuring out how to honestly answer the questions you have to answer, and answer them so that I get to join. Is it ok with me to call that belief in a higher power “Jesus?” Would it be ok with them for my belief to be that tenuous?
I know that doctrinally, a Unitarian Universalist church would be a better fit. And I even visited one that was also full of kids and educational programs and notices that it welcomed LGBT people.
But I really like this community, and I feel like they would help me find a good outlet for the social justice and educational things I’d like to be doing, but am not right now. It feels like more of a fit than the UU church did.
October 22nd, 2006 at 11:04 pm
Have you tried United Church of Christ? (Some are still called Congregational/UCC)
More Jesus than the UUs, but not of the speaking-in-tongues variety, and scads of social justice. Theologically, they respect the right of members to believe and interpret Scripture in their own way. At least ours says so in the bulletin.
But if you feel at home, stay.
October 22nd, 2006 at 11:57 pm
so what religion is this exactly????
October 23rd, 2006 at 12:18 am
Southern Funkagelical?
I’d say stay for now if you are allowed lattitude in how you understand/interpret scripture.
A seriously Calvinist colleague at NMU — seriously Calvinist in the way that probably only a midwesterner could really understand, but I kind of got the drift — once told me that the only way to God/salvation was through Jesus.
I asked, do you think it’s possible that Jesus has appeared in different cultures at different times in different guises, like among the Hindus 2500 years ago as the Buddha, Siddhartha Gautama?
He thought for a minute, then said, “Yes.”
He didn’t appear to have a conflict between that belief and his devout Calvinism, odd as that might seem. So maybe these folks would accept that sort of approach, tailored to your own views of course.
As for feeling at home there, I would say that’s great… but if there is an insurmountable difference, that will almost defintely lead to a rupture sooner or later, and then with that rupture would come a painful loss of community. If you find there’s a deep-seated incompatibility, I think you’re better off at a less-home-feeling place where your values are not going to be on a collision course with doctrine.
Good luck!
October 23rd, 2006 at 6:54 am
Talk to your minister neighbor about your questions, and about whether you can call Jesus a higher power (rather than the converse, which you proposed: calling a higher power Jesus).
I don’t know if you read Cecily at all (zia.blogs.com) but she has blogged a lot about her church, which is fairly mainstream doctrinally, and its openness to her and her agnostic husband (most recently with regard to their daugher’s baptism on Sunday). Hopefully your church can be similarly supportive of you.
I feel similar to you on this subject, by the way, but haven’t moved forward on it, in no small part due to the fact that I really like our quiet, restful Sunday mornings at home together. Oh, and Cait’s pretty clear disinterest in the idea.
October 23rd, 2006 at 9:36 am
i have to say there is something disturbing to me about joining a church of a religion that you don’t ascribe to whatsoever. i understand the inclination, i would love to join a church or a synagogue and have that kind of community. when i lived in texas i joined a synagogue for that reason but it didn’t work because i didn’t believe in the religion. the sense of community that i coveted was based around something i didn’t share - as much as i liked the people and WANTED to be a part of the community, you can’t wish yourself into a community if you don’t share the bond that is the basis of the community.
maybe it’s just me. i’m sure there are many churches and synagogues full of people who don’t believe in the religion the community supposedly shares. especially people who want to give their kids this pre-fabricated sense of community. but if those non-believers are the majority in a congregation, isn’t that damaging to the religion? don’t the actual believers have a right to a community in which others actually share their beliefs? and if the non-believers are in the minority, then aren’t you misrepresenting yourself just to join the club? even if you “out” yourself to the pastor, the other congregants will assume you share their religion. are you going to “out” yourself to them as well?
it seems to me that it is putting the cart before the horse to pick a community based on a shopping list of characteristics (like how many lesbian families are involved and how many women in leadership roles) regardless of the nature of the community itself. atlanta is a big city! i’m sure there are other communities that are welcoming to families like yours, that engage in social events and social justice activities, but where you won’t have to “fake” a belief in something just to join the club. i’m sure there is more than one unitarian church, maybe you will like another one better than the one you visited. obviously, there are also many non-religious communities that have social events and do social justice work.
you might not find a community that is exactly what you are looking for, in terms of your shopping list of characteristics. i think there are a lot of appealing benefits that come from believing in the doctrines of a religion. they aren’t necessarily all available to those of us who don’t believe, and that’s just the way it is. that doesn’t mean that you can’t be a part of a community, it just might not look exactly how you think it should look.
of course, part of the reason the churchy community is so appealing is because it’s the social norm: going to church on sunday, church suppers — it all sounds so wholesome and mayberry, it’s the very picture of “Happy American Family Life”. who wouldn’t be attracted to that? don’t you think that is part of why you want to go to church? why else would an agnostic suddenly want to join a church? it’s like how i wanted to go to Connecticut College because the buildings were gothic and covered in ivy and it looked just like what i though college should look like. to most americans, church is what community should look like. that doesn’t mean that other communities won’t better fulfill our needs.
October 23rd, 2006 at 9:59 am
Sorry that this somehow came off like a shopping list of characteristics! That’s not how I feel about it at all.
The only real list item I had is that it be a place where my family and I feel welcome and comfortable. The list above is more of a “list of things about this place that seem to contribute to my feeling welcome and comfortable.”
It’s a Presybterian church, http://www.central-presbyterian.org/, if you want to be specific.
Just to be confusing, the minister actually isn’t a neighbor. He’s friends with our neighbors, whom I would normally talk to about this without hesitation. Sadly, Mr. Neighbor is in the hospital in critical condition; he’s been there for 8 or 9 days. We don’t want to bother the Neighbor family right now.
October 23rd, 2006 at 11:31 am
i didn’t mean “shopping list” to sound like a criticism! i understand those are the things that make you feel comfortable. my point was just that i think it puts the cart before the horse to decide whether you feel comfortable and then look at the nature of the community rather than find a community you have a deeper affinity with and then decide whether you feel comfortable there or not.
October 23rd, 2006 at 12:01 pm
Hunh. That’s a tough one indeed.
Not being a churchy type, we had a really difficult time with the decision to christen Henry. As you know, we ended up having him christened in the Unitarian Universalist church near our home.
I was brought up in the Congregational church, and they were pretty easy on the Jesus business, but I’ve always atteneded the UU church in times when I felt a churchy need.
On a whole, I’ve always found the UUs to be accepting and to be a community of folks I’d want to be friends with outside of a church setting.
But I also think that it’s important for you to find a place where you feel comfortable and that your family is welcome. I’d also recommend having a deeper conversation with the minister about your concerns/doubts. I come from a family where religion is more of a personal faith and a conversation, not necesarily a doctrine. Which, of course, sort of flies in the face of… well… religion.
Religion is a tricky bastard, indeed.
October 23rd, 2006 at 12:02 pm
Ah, the varieties of religious experience.
I agree with Jen (in md), but only for the reason that eventually one who shares a radically different belief (and I think doubt of Jesus’ divinity qualifies with regard to Chritianity) will probably always feel unconnected to the church community in a fundamental way. It may work out, but probably not.
Otherwise, I think most non-fundamentalist Christian churches are pretty tolerant of heretical beliefs. They have been in my personal experience and I’m chock-full of heresy!
BTW, Madelaine and I have had a difficult time finding a church we like in Milwaukee. Oh, and I have no problem with compiling a fucking shopping list of characteristics…in fact, when I meet a pastor for the first time and he asks what I’m looking for in a Christian community I hand him the paper say “Glad you asked–here’s my fucking list, churchy!”
Ahem.
Anyway, for a few weeks we attended a UU church in Brookfield which was great, but, ultimately, we felt that we could, you know, sign petitions, listen to John Lennon and read Emerson AT HOME. And we could do all that AFTER we slept in.
And every UCC church I’ve scouted has been like a scene from the Bergman film “Winter Light” (http://www.cinematheque.bc.ca/JanFeb05/IngmarBergman_4.html)–small, aging, white congregations, and one lonely, dour pastor. Oh, the unspoken spiritual torment!
I think I’ll just start my own religion. That’s always been on my to-do list.
October 23rd, 2006 at 12:38 pm
Eric, you and Madelaine might actually like the church where I grew up. Cross Lutheran (ELCA) at 16th & Walnut.
The pastor there when I was a kid retired after 30 or 35 years, maybe 2-3 years ago, so I can’t speak to what it’s like now, but last time I was there, it was ~60% African-American, 30% white, 10% Cambodian, and had a significant population of multiracial families.
Of course, I can’t address the doctrinal stuff at all. I was never uncomfortable, but for me, the church you grow up in is kind of like an ethnicity. I feel like I would get to be that, and in that community, regardless of my personal beliefs, if I wanted to/lived in Milwaukee.
October 23rd, 2006 at 12:43 pm
Oh, but they 100% fail the sleeping in test, unless the new pastor changed the time of the service. Last I checked, it was 9:30 am.
On the other hand, you get gospel music.
That’s the hardest part of UU and other very white churches for me. The religion part of my brain imprinted on gospel music. I can listen to European-origin traditional church music, and sometimes it’s pretty and I even enjoy it. But a good minor-key spiritual actually makes me feel like a believer.
October 23rd, 2006 at 3:27 pm
Hi Liza,
A friend pointed out your blog to me, thinking I might be interested since I am in seminary to become a UU minister. You are right that a UU church would be a good match for you both theologically and socially. Our congregations tend to be very different from one another so you might consider trying a few different UU churches to see if you can find a better fit.
In terms of sleeping in on Sunday morning - look for a UU church that holds “Soulful Sundown” services or check out a reconstructionist Jewish community if there are any in your neighborhood.
Protestant churches really vary in the amount of theological latitude they accept amongst their congregation. The only way to really know if your beliefs would be acceptable at that particular church would be to have a really open and honest conversation with the minister or perhaps some lay leaders of your church.
I wish you all the best on your spiritual journey!
October 23rd, 2006 at 7:35 pm
I agree w/ Michelle about talking to the pastor first. He might have insight into the whole situation, whether it’s compatible to join a church when you don’t share the beliefs (which is what the basis of a church really is). If you don’t buy into Jesus, and still want spirituality, this might be a good time to look into different ones and see what matches your beliefs. If you stay w/ the church, one day, you’ll have to talk to Noah about Jesus and what he’s learning at church and why. And, he will learn from church about Jesus and the whole foot washing carpenter saving the world as the “truth.”
October 23rd, 2006 at 9:28 pm
I’m fine with Noah learning Christianity at this church. The overall message he’ll get at home is an age-appropriate version of “this is what we believe” and as he gets older, he’s free to form his own opinions.
Yesterday was CPC’s “Children’s Sabbath” and the sermon was about the many different things that different Christian churches believe about communion, and the various things that it gets called. It was mostly phrased as questions, with occasional explanations of vocabulary.
I was WAITING for the part where they said something like “this is the right answer” or even “this is what we believe in this church” but interestingly, those never came.
The point of the talk was peace and respect, and how much trouble in the world that violent disagreement about the answers to those questions has caused.
The view seemed to be that if you were old enough to follow what the lady was saying, you were just as entitled to have an opinion about the topic as anyone else.
That experience, and a few other comments from the pulpit, have me feeling like some uncertainty is ok. But I think you’re all right, a conversation about the really Jesus-y part of the belief system is in order before I actually join.
A word on why I’m not inclined to keep looking, maybe for some different UUs. I *like* UUs, but in the various UU churches I’ve checked out over the last 15 years (they’ve always been my first stop when a churchy impulse has hit), I’ve never felt that click of being in the right place.
That feeling isn’t one I can logic out. It’s a gut thing, or maybe a spiritual thing. I have that feeling about this place, and I’m trying to logic the other direction. I don’t seem to be conveying it very well, but it actually is working.
(Heh. It’s exercising the high school debater part of my brain.)
October 23rd, 2006 at 10:41 pm
this seems like a good area to go with your gut. after all, it’s not like anything bad will happen if it doesn’t work out. worst case scenario, you stop going to that church. big whoop.
i was the one who suggested michelle stop by! she was my college freshman roommate and is still a good friend. i’m so proud that she’s in seminary and i knew she’d have something smart to add to the conversation.
October 24th, 2006 at 12:11 am
Cool, Jen! I wondered who sent her in this direction.
And by the way, Michelle, welcome! And thanks for jumping into the conversation.
October 24th, 2006 at 4:51 pm
Liza I so know what you mean! When people ask me about the Jewish stuff I can’t get to yet I just say “it’s the price of the ticket and I’ll get it when I’m ready.” As they say in 12 step programs, “fake it ’til you make it.” The biggest surprise to me as I make this journey is that most people stuggle with issues of faith. it’s like that line in A LEAGUE OF THEIR OWN: if it were easy, EVERYbody would do it.
Bring your beautiful spirit to share and take what you can… the rest will either come or just pass by silently in the breeze.
October 25th, 2006 at 3:58 pm
I think the fact that you like the community of the church is perfect. I (personally) find that the freinds I have at my church make my life better. The teachings I receive there are just an added bonus. You know? I think it’s great that you guys are trying to find a positive place for your family. That is what is important.
(My specific congregation is very diverse. Which I think is very important for my baby. I just wish they had a daycare. We’re trying to get him into a more “born again Christian” daycare near by. Not really our style, but it’s cheaper. Gasp!)
Good luck and keep us posted. (As if it’s any of our business…but you know…)