Sat 11 Apr 2009
Pppptoo-ers
Posted by Liza under Personal
[11] Comments
I was raised in a gun and toy-gun free household.
In fact, I remember sneaking to buy a squirt gun for the last day of school in 7th grade, and not being sure where I’d be able to hide it when I got home. I think I either threw it away or gave it to someone else.
I also remember being enormously disadvantaged in a water fight with my neighbor and the boy who lived behind him at age 9, when they had machine-gun pump style water guns and I had…an empty baby magic lotion bottle.
My feeling was that as an adult, I would discourage gun toys, but probably not have a bright line rule against them.
And I now think that gun toys are inevitable.
Noah recently declared his kazoo a “pppptoo-er” and he “pppptoos” us constantly. He is also making us pppptooers out of magic markers.
When we mentioned that later today we’re going to go to visit some friends, he excitedly pointed out that these friends have swords and “gungs” at their house. And also bad guy balls. Which you are not allowed to throw at babies.
Should we try to regulate pppptooers?
April 11th, 2009 at 10:30 am
I would think that this shares a quality with Sex-Ed in that ultimately what needs to be instilled is a set of values that regulate the causes of undesired behavior rather than regulate behaviors that are symptoms of bad values.
If you have an arbitrary no-gun rule (or no violent toy rule) when their friends have them it is much like saying don’t have sex or don’t drink later. Not very effective. Actually creating an arbitrary rule now may undermine efforts to instill responsible behavior on the other issues later.
FWIW: I was raised in a household that was not precisely no gun, but no solid projectiles. A gun that just made sounds was one thing, water pistols were fine, BB guns were not. When asked why not we were told that the BB gun could actually hurt someone, and what did we need one for?
So I would suggest letting your kids have toys that are not likely to cause injury but draw the line at a point where you can explain that past that point something bad can happen, which is more defensible than a blanket ban.
My $0.02
April 11th, 2009 at 10:46 am
Wow. I am so surprised that you are considering letting Noah have guns! My memories of our no gun household are pretty similar to yours. I also remember Grandma sneaking a toy bow and arrow set out of the shopping cart at Toys R Us when I was visiting them. But aside from that I don’t think I ever really felt like I was missing out.
I do remember taking riflery at Camp Lake Hubert and being particularly upset by a chipmunk that got in the line of fire, thus ending my shooting career.
I think that every babystep towards desensitizing kids to gun violence is a mistake. I know it won’t be easy, but we are keeping a gun free house.
April 11th, 2009 at 12:21 pm
Liza;
This post brings up a point about which (with you being an intelligent and fair-minded person, as well as a parent) I’d like to get your opinion.
As you may be aware, I’m a liberal Democrat, but I do own a few handguns. Admittedly it seems a majority of the people at the gun range seem to be from the other end of the political spectrum. The FAR other end! I am so *NOT* the NRA, and should there be legislation restricting firearm ownership, I wouldn’t get bent out of shape over it. I enjoy shooting for recreation and competition, but I’m not going to run around and protest and shout about my second amendment rights should I not be able to do so any more. If I’m not allowed to own firearms, so be it. They’re not THAT important to me – I don’t have any government to overthrow or compound to protect. At the moment.
I mention all this to frame my following question as an honest question with the intent of seeking honest opinions, and not a knee-jerk question from someone from the right trying to shove an agenda or a viewpoint.
So here goes.
What causes more family problems and deaths in American society – guns or alcohol? I would submit that alcohol is the bigger problem. I see far more stories in our local paper about drunk-driving fatalities than those from gunshots. If a family has a hard-core line against children playing with guns as toys, wouldn’t it also be wise not to expose them to any alcohol consumption (picnics, weddings, etc…)? How many parents refuse to have gun-related toys in the house, but don’t mind having their kids see them enjoying a good bit of wine when friends are over?
Like I said, these are honest questions, to which I’m interested in other’s opinions. Especially parents, since I don’t have children myself. That leads to a follow-up question of exactly what is hoped to be accomplished by banning gun-related toys. I’m not quite sure.
Honestly curious,
Richard
P.S. I don’t think I’ve seen you or Jill since Dave’s wedding, so now that you’re back in town maybe we can all get together to discuss in person (among other things) some evening when you’re free.
P.P.S. I promise I’ll leave my handguns at home!
April 11th, 2009 at 3:17 pm
Covert’s comments sound right on to me, and as you know I grew up in a pacifist household — albeit one in which we periodically borrowed a pellet gun for thinning the rat population when the cat couldn’t keep up with it. (Having goats = having grain. Having grain = having rats.) Even the rat shooting was framed as a health issue, not a sport.
Even when I recently discovered the fun of target shooting, I still had no desire to aim at anything alive.
April 11th, 2009 at 5:44 pm
I was going to stage my response on the fact that we’re southerners, and there’s just a different mindset in these parts. But, I was raised in Iowa, so I shouldn’t place blame on an entire population when that’s not the whole truth. My husband has a PhD in an ag-related field. He’s also taught gun safety at many levels and to many age-groups … 4-H, FFA, Boy/Cub Scouts, etc. I grew up with my dad driving around with a loaded rifle in his truck, mainly used on the farm in case an animal was too sick or too hurt and had to be put down. It was not to fear, but to respect. I had 3 brothers who chose to learn how to shoot, and all of them were avid hunters.
My husband used to hunt (when he had that life before kids), but through the course of his education, he’s also done many things to capture live animals for scientific research. We have guns in our house, cleaned and unloaded rifles & shotguns (even I don’t know where the ammo is for them) as well as black powder weapons that are loaded, but no child (or this mom) would know the process one needs to go through to shoot them (i.e you can’t just pick them up and fire off a round).
All four of our children (3 girls, 1 boy) have BB guns. Our son also has a compound bow. We have a shooting range set up with bales of straw on our land (we are in the country), and a box of safety glasses so the kids can be safe. They are never allowed to shoot without adult supervision and all of them have had their ‘level’ of gun safety classes.
I must also say that we have no television access or cable. The kids are limited to 2 movies a week that I choose, and if they are questionable, I preview them before I allow the kids to watch them. I think this one thing makes a HUGE difference in their behavior and choices.
I personally choose not to shoot. I tried once, but my eyesight is so bad that I am just too afraid that I’ll hurt someone. Better to leave things alone than to have accidents.
But, our son doesn’t need a water pistol or a real gun to play. He’ll pick up a stick, or make a pretend gun out of KNex or Legos or ANYTHING … and it’s certainly not something we taught him, he just does it.
I think the key to what we’re teaching our children is respect for the opportunity to have these things, and the education to back up our feelings on the subject. Since our son is homeschooled, we have a lot of freedom to choose how to educate him in a lot of subjects that aren’t possible in a school – and since his dad has that PhD, our young man could have no better teacher IMO. But, I don’t want to leave out our girls, either. Although they do go to public school, they get the same opportunities to learn and shoot as the son-man does. No gender discrimination, and I made that clear before we had kids.
My kids are intelligent and make wonderful choices. They find a bug in the house, they capture it and send it on its way outside – alive. None of them would even consider SHOOTING something instead. They use their brains before anything else – and I have to give my husband credit for that, as he’s taught them to respect the privilege and the weapons and to find joy (through education) in all living things, way before the thought of using a gun on something besides a target comes to mind.
April 12th, 2009 at 12:30 pm
Caveat: I’m the father at the home in Liza’s post (where toy weapons are allowed).
My wife and I do not own real guns. We are politically very liberal and support strict gun control laws. I think Covert very clearly summed up our philosophy on this issue.
I believe that violence, abuse, and murder are not the results of the existence or prevalence of weapons (or of the desensitization toward weapons and violence), but the results of poverty, lack of education, and mental illness. Or, more accurately, violence is the result of a societal NEGLECT of poverty, lack of education, and mental illness. (Also, I think this serves as my answer to Liza’s question from a few posts earlier about why child abuse exists).
April 12th, 2009 at 9:24 pm
Covert’s first paragraph: Wow. Yeah. ‘Nuff said.
But here’s this: You’ll also recall that we were raised in a time when monkey bars existed and darts had metal tips and the toy dart guns shot hard plastic darts with real rubber suction cups that would actually stick to the wall. Well, given your description above you probably don’t recall that, but trust me, you were raised in that era.
So Dad hunted, and fished, and trapped. And my older brothers hunted, and fished, and trapped. Shotguns hung on racks in our basement. I’ve never wanted to touch one of the things. I think i shot a BB gun once.
But we always got a passel o’ dart guns under the tree at Christmas, and would commence to housewide wars until Mom shooed us to the basement.
So one day Mark and Wayne were getting too rambunctious upstairs while mom was doing laundry (keep in mind they’re, what, 17 and 18 at this point, maybe even in their 20s already and visiting home). So she starts up the stairs, hollering about “Put those guns away right now.” So one of them rounds the corner, aims down the stairs and, pop! — SHOOTS OUR MOTHER.
The dart hit square in the middle of her forehead. And stuck. Like a unicorn horn. She pulled it off, and it left a red ring that stayed for a week or so.
They don’t make that kind of gun any more.
April 13th, 2009 at 7:30 pm
Caveat: I don’t have kids.
Like Richard, I am a liberal who supports responsible gun ownership (but not recreational hunting). I would not let my child play with gun TOYS however, and my answer to Richard is that there is a difference between modeling responsible adult behavior (having a glass of wine in front of kids, letting the kids see you cleaning your guns) and making what should be an adult-only activity into a game. (If it makes you feel better, Richard, I wouldn’t let my toddler pretend to get drunk off of toy beers either.) It’s not that children should learn that guns are “bad” but that they should learn guns are not toys. I think it is wrong to teach a child that shooting/killing people or animals is fun in any way.
If adults want guns for self-defense, to shoot at inanimate targets for fun, to hunt as a matter of survival, or just because they like to collect them, that’s fine. But a toddler can’t understand that it’s ok to point a gun at a paper target but not at his brother. Until a child is old enough to understand the difference, and to learn responsible gun use in general, he shouldn’t “play” with guns.
April 13th, 2009 at 7:41 pm
To answer Liza’s question, I disagree with Covert. Even if a gun can’t hurt anyone, it’s still having an impact on the values you are teaching your child. To me, the relevant question is “what is the gun being used for?” If “the game” is that it’s fun to pretend to hurt or kill people or animals — even if there’s no actual chance of harm — it’s teaching the child the wrong values. If the “game” is something else (e.g. a water balloon slingshot where the point is to get the person wet), I don’t have a problem with projectiles. Water and paint guns are a gray area because they could be used either way. I would allow them once the child was old enough to understand the difference between a game to get someone wet or tag someone “out” and a game about injury and death.
April 13th, 2009 at 7:47 pm
Sorry, last thing and then I’ll shut up. For these reasons I stated above, I would also not allow a child to pretend that ANY items are guns — I wouldn’t let him point a magic marker at someone as if it’s a gun either. Again, the point is not what the item is, the point is “what’s the ‘fun’ behind this game?”
April 14th, 2009 at 8:47 am
I don’t think Jen and I are as far off as she might think. The underlying values are the key. However there is also a “pick your battles” element in my position. An arbitrary rule that is out of step with the other kids around them could cause them to question the rule, and thus your parental authority. If you arbitrarily forbid guns, or come down too harshly on them picking up a stick and playing at having a gun then you come across as unreasonable, and they may well just make sure you don’t see them playing with their friends. This is not a pattern of behavior you want to encourage.
Having a discussion with them about why they want to play Cowboys and Indians or another violent game is entirely reasonable and leads them to choose not to participate if handled appropriately, and still leaves you as the go-to person for advice in peer pressure situations later.
Growing up in a very safe (to the point where my and most of my friends houses often had a door left unlocked) upper-middle class suburb, a no-solid projectile rule was reasonable. (They didn’t exist back then but my Dad would have forbidden paintball at the house because of the injury risk, and they damage the surroundings.) If I had grown up on a farm, like most of my paternal cousins, where guns are not toys, or just for hunting but for getting rid of feral and possibly rabid vermin attacking people/pets or your crops (and thus your livlihood) I would almost certainly have been brought up with guns in the house and been trained in the care, and responsible use, of them and to distinguish between toys and the real thing early. As it is I find myself in middle age having never fired a gun – never having had a reason to do so, but also recognizing them as a tool, to be used in their place.